from EBinVC
Thanks for all the comments on the Reign of Terror / New Day dawning piece.
We get the message that using over-the-top language may not be the most effective way to communicate with whatever audience this little blog site may have found.
So, chagrined, we go back to the drawing board.
Please don't always assume, however, that right wing hyperbole is not having an effect in the community. Some may see it as the work of out-of-touch whack jobs, but when it comes from whack jobs who actually mobilize a constituency in support of their message, it does have an impact. And not a good one.
23 comments:
Maybe as one commenter alluded, this blog should hold a contest, in the tradition of Dan Savage, and ask readers to submit their ideas for a new definition of the word "gramley" just as Savage did for the word "santorum." It was a way of trying to deflate whatever power Santorum had when in the Senate by associating his name with his unusual obsession with sex.
Just an idea.
Glad to see the dialog continuing here. It's the first post that has gotten any feedback for a month -- no need to put a lid on it so quickly!
Any hyperbole has an effect. It's called manipulation. Intelligent people resent it, even when they have general sympathy with an organization's goals.
One wholehearted, sincere statement of opinion rooted in personal experience of this community would be worth a boatload of pejoratives.
I'd really like to see coming from the discussions on the blog a direction that included some figures ala Florida regarding economic development and open minded communities, a role for PFLAG in Venango, a more vocal gay-straight alliance, resources for teens who are just coming out, announcements of local civil unions. . .
Whoever this Dittman guy is, he seems pretty cool.
Who is Peter Greene? He's always lecturing and telling people how to think and what to feel?
Has he ever been kicked out of his house, assaulted at school, lost his job, or feared for his life simply because of who he is?
Has he ever walked a day in the shoes of those he condescends to?
I doubt it from the way he talks.
Ugh. The anonymous "You don't know me!" argument, so redolent of middle school cafeterias you can fairly see the steam rising from the chafing dishes.
For me, this thread is dead. Best of luck.
In answer to Peter's question about what we want - Michael actually hit on it - A vocal gay/straight alliance. PFLAG would be awesome. Great folks! It's the young people that spurred my willingness to be outspoken and PFLAG would be a great resource. PFLAG is a positive, organized, and effective group.
If we seem to be hollering, it's from a lifetime of being kicked in the shins. The skin gets a bit thin and raw at times. This blog needs to stop kicking at people like Pete and Michael who are working hard to understand and build bridges. We aren't all going to agree. That's ok. They are willing to share their confusion and perspective. And they see us as equal. We should listen and we should share with those willing to listen to us.
It's the people who don't see us as equal, who are unwilling to try to understand, and wish us ill that raise my dander. I would urge people like Pete and Michael to encourage our legislators, our community leaders and fellow citizens to try to understand us as well. They aren't inclined to do that if this blog is unfriendly. It's time to make it safe for people to talk!
Let's find answers. Let's build something instead of poking at each other.
All right, I said I was leaving, but Linda is right.
Erin Cranford Williams, Chapter Services Coordinator at PFLAG is the woman to contact about starting a chapter.
fieldsupport@pflag.org or 202-467-8180, ext. 233
I am writing to apologize, to all those in Venango County working to end bigotry and discrimination, for submitting the recent post about Diane Gramley’s crusade against The Latonia anonymously.
I thought that by keeping my name out of view attention would be focused on the issues at-hand rather than my status as an outside agitator or lightning rod in the community.
But, judging from the reaction of some, I seem to have pushed it too far by using language that understandably caused distraction rather than the attention I had hoped for about both Gramley’s egregious actions and Namoli Brennet’s beautiful way of helping the community get through such a difficult period.
Again, sorry for taking the eye off the ball and disrupting the important work in which many, many good people are involved.
Joe Wilson
For the record, Joe's story on this issue ran after a number of us reviewed it and shared our revisions. I DO feel Diane Gramley and her cohorts terrorized us, terrorize the GLBT community and use such tactics to bully the general community into submission.
There is also an erroneous perception that Joe's promotion of the Namoli concert is what put the Latonia on the AFA's radar. Not true.
Remember that the AFA believes there is a "gay agenda". We all think alike. We are all alike. Six months prior to the concert, a package arrived at the Latonia addressed to Joe Wilson and Dean Hamer. The return address was from Jane Richey. Joe and Dean don't have an office at the Latonia and never have.
Rox and I should have sent it back but we held it for Joe and Dean. I still don't know what was in that package and I really don't care. I know what it was about. I knew it then. It was meant as a message and it was meant as a test of our associations. Another game. So, if we seem to be hollering... These people look to cause controversy. I would love to ignore them. The problem is - they don't ignore us. They poke and prode - watching - looking to created a controversy. Joe Wilson promoted the Namoli concert as blowing the door off the closet that should never have existed in the first place. He's been fortunate enough to live in a world that we do not. A place that is welcoming to all. His dream is that we too can experience that - right here in his home town.
I have to agree with a great deal of Linda's comments on this and other threads, and I do want to add that while the language may have seemed too strong for some, it got some attention, apparently.
It's interesting to note that folks who don't have to deal with a daily dose of discrimination are usually quick to critique the language used, and make determinations as to whether or not such language accurately reflects an experience they didn't, and don't, have. That makes it hard to answer the question "what do you want me to do?" as you have already established that you won't listen unless the answer is delivered in a way you deem most palatable.
I appreciated Dittman's encouragement to abandon the "victimization" rhetoric (if that is, actually, what it is?!?) and get organized-maybe contact PFLAG or other organizations. This, actually, has already happened and that organization has been here and met with several interested parties, quite a few months ago, thanks to the outstanding and brave leadership provided by Linda. There is much more work to be done, though.
And one final thing about Joe Wilson. When a group of young adults from the area were dealing with some pretty serious concerns about their safety, and trying to figure out how to live authentic, honest lives in their hometown, the only person they felt they could turn to for direction, support, and encouragement was Joe.
Why?
Because he hollers when we don't.
Joe and Linda, I appreciate both of those posts, both the spirit in which they were written and the information that they contained. Thank you.
Re: the "you don't have the experience" argument. If you're wondering why so many straight folks don't speak up, here's one reason. Many feel they DON'T know and therefor shouldn't speak. Some, like me, who speak, find that some folks will dismiss any part that they don't like with, "Well, you just don't know."
FTR, at no point have I said I won't hear anything I don't find palatable. But because I do listen, I can hear the difference between people who are trying to educate me and people who are trying to scare me.
"while the language may have seemed too strong for some, it got some attention, apparently. "
And if it's just attention that you want, then that's certain;y your choice. But attention does not equal progress.
As for the student issue-- it's frustrating for me, because I'm very limited professionally in what I can say about that situation. I will say that in the end, I believe that there's a lot to learn from that series of events because everyone lost, and in the case of LGBT students, lost big.
I expect that some of the differences of opinion that appear in this blog come down to different opinions about how to advocate for a cause; every cause that has ever come down the pike has faced the debate of how best to draw attention and support for what they want, and I wouldn't expect this issue to be any different.
I stay engaged in this conversation not because I have an ax to grind, but because I think I represent a certain sector of the mainstream population, and as such can offer a perspective on how things come across.
It's back to the listening stuff, part of Communication 101. If you tell someone, "You should eat more cherries" and they reply, "But I hate watermelon." That tells you something. You can jump straight to "this person is an idiot" or "this person is trying to screw with me," or you can conclude "this person heard me say 'watermelon'" and thereby decide to modulate your message.
When I say "reign of terror" strikes me as overblown, I'm not trying to say someone is wrong to use it-- I'm trying to tell you what I hear when I read it.
People talk a lot about really hearing each other and it becomes almost cliche, but the fact of the matter is, hearing people accurately is really hard, and making yourself heard clearly is really hard, and building those kinds of b ridges require people who are patient and willing to try and re-try to clarify messages. That's why I appreciate posts like Linda's.
I understand the impulse to say, "You don't get it-- I don't have to listen to you" or to say, "You just aren't hearing me-- I'm going to stop talking." But neither of those stances help us understand or advance.
I am so thankful for the dialogue here on all counts. There's something magical happening in Venango County. I'll try to take the time this weekend to write about it from my perspective. Briefly, I realize that Venango County people are quiet but that doesn't mean they are silent.
Tonight, as part of Oil Heritage, we again opened the Latonia doors to share the building's history and what we are doing. We had nearly the same number of visitors this year as last year. Close to 500. Dozens and Dozens of these 50-80 year old folks told us they were proud of us. Told us they believe in what we are doing. One woman even stood up at the end of the presentation and made that statement to which the crowd of nearly 100 applauded. I am awed! I am humbled. And my faith is restored.
Peter,
Thank you for the sentiments expressed in your comments here. Your efforts to engage in this and other community conversations strike me as incredibly important and helpful.
I am very interested in learning more about your statement that "LGBT students ... lost big" as a result of recent events. If things are in fact worse now for LGBT youth in the area, then the situation is urgent and there should be a way to strategize together as a community of concerned individuals about how to address such problems more effectively.
This online forum is likely not the best place for such work, but your insights would seem to be key.
With regard to potential straight allies in the community needing/hoping to be educated by LGBT people about the oppression, bigotry, harassment, discrimination, etc. (choose your preferred term(s)) we experience, I agree that we need to articulate such messages in ways that can better be heard and understood.
But I also think it's important for people of conscious in the dominant culture to take some responsibility for the ways in which their privilege affects respect for the rights and dignity of those in marginalized communities.
For example, if addressing the wrongs of racism is viewed as solely the burden of people of color to articulate grievances in ways that are least offensive to the dominant white culture, god (or somebody or something) help us.
Anti-racist study and activism in white communities is equally if not more important in overcoming deeply entrenched the attitudes and behavior that make racism and its effects such a profound problem.
In the case of LGBT folks in small towns and rural communities, it can often be incredibly difficult and risky to speak out. That's why I've been hoping against hope for some respected public figure in the area to help break the ice on the subject in order to create space for others to join and further the cause.
Heterosexism needs to be acknowledged, examined, challenged, retired, etc., etc.
If a Dan Savage-like humor-based approach is what will work best in Venango County, in order that this thread not be dead as another commenter suggested, then let's get on with it together.
Joe Wilson
I don't think the situation is any worse for LGBT students, but as I said, this is not something I can get into here. I also agree that there are a lot of limits to this type of discourse. It's a complicated set of issues, and when we dig down to any level of detail or nuance, this sort of forum (I mean the type of expression and exchange that this format forces on us) limit how well we can say what we have to say.
Regarding the communications between majority and minority groups (I would argue that "dominant" and "marginalized" are lousy word choices and examples of the language of victimization), my point is NOT that folks should avoid using drastic or alarming or offensive language because my (or other) WASPy male sensibilities might be harmed, but because the shock or impact of overhyped language gets in the way of communicating the actual message.
IOW, one big reason I don't scream at my students is not just because I don't want to make them feel bad, but because if I scream at them, they won't hear a word I say and I'll never teach them a thing.
Alright Peter, It would be wonderful if you would provide an example of how best to address these issues locally by using one of your upcoming columns in The Derrick/News-Herald to help open up public space and promote the rights of GLBT people to live openly with fairness and equality in Venango County. Will you do that please? Thanks, Joe Wilson
Greene doesn't need my defense, but as an educator, I have to say he'd be committing career suicide and possible opening himself up to subpoena to do so because of discrimination cases against the district in which he works.
On a different topic, what else needs to be done with PFLAG and how can I help? I mean, that's really what we should be focusing on, right?
To get PFLAG started in Venango County, we need a some local adults willing to organize it. Both the Erie Chapter and the Regional leadership have offered their full support. During the day of silence discussions, we introduced this as a possible resource. My understanding is that some local people wanted to do this a while back. I'll be talking with them. Meanwhile, anyone interested in being a part should email; ebinvc@yahoo.com. Michael, you're a good connection person. You can help us make the connections.
Thank you!
I'm confused. Why would the simple act of publicly expressing a general opinion on issues of basic human rights be committing career suicide and opening oneself up to subpoena?
If this is the kind of pressure felt by adults, and educators to boot, in Venango County in the 21st Century, imagine what it might be like to be a GLBT young person in such an environment.
PFLAG would be a great contribution, but so much more needs to be done.
Joe
(rereposted for html battles)
Joe, the inappropriate part would be for me to publicly discuss personal details about any students at my school (whether subjects of film documentary or no).
As far as addressing many of these issues in my column, I think, in my own way, that I often have. I'll list some samples at the end of this (mostly because it's just hard for me to go long without giving reading assignments). But I don't think it's news to you, Joe, that my point of view isn't necessarily in complete accordance with yours (at least, that's what I assume from your public letter suggesting I am a bad man to be teaching young people). Though I also suspect that you sometimes jumped to conclusions before reading all the way to the end of the sentence, that's probably balanced by any mischaracterizations of you that I included.
I include in this list the column about the opening of the Latonia, as I was one of the first writers in the area to cover it. I did not mention that Linda and Roxanne were a couple because A) I didn't know because B) it did not occur to me to ask or to wonder.
At any rate, Joe, I feel like you and I have really reached the limits of our ability to converse through this medium. But I'll be happy to get lunch with you if you're in town some time in August.
"http://venangoland.blogspot.com/
2008/02/gramley-vs-wilson-round-147.html"
"http://venangoland.blogspot.com/
2008/01/schools-and-difference.html"
"http://venangoland.blogspot.com/
2007/09/bearing-witness-news-herald-september.html"
"http://venangoland.blogspot.com/
2007/07/peeking-at-latonia-news-herald-july-24.html"
"http://venangoland.blogspot.com/
2007/07/do-right-thing-news-herald-september.html"
"http://venangoland.blogspot.com/
2006/07/tolerance-news-herald-july-27.html"
"http://venangoland.blogspot.com/
2006/06/minority-jerks-news-herald-june-22-one.html"
Thanks All, for doing what you do.
I know our paths will continue to cross on this journey to a more just and humane world.
Joe
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